Brewers-Cubs NLDS Game Two Thread

[BruisedCrew]

I really can't agree with the sentiment that Murphy's decision to go with the bullpen game was a master class move.

In my book it was a gamble that ended up working out because the offense and the 6 pitchers who followed Ashby all came through with near flawless performances. From the contemporaneous comments on the game thread I think there are a lot of posters who would agree with me if they are honest with themselves.

If Vaughn hadn't come up with the 3 run HR in the first and/or any of the 6 pitchers who followed Ashby had had blowup outings, he would have been roasted for tinkering with pitchers and putting them in something other than their normal roles. 

If he wanted to give the back end relievers an inning of work that could have been done easily after letting Priester go 4 innings and pulling him earlier if he ran into trouble.

If Misioroski had walked several batters, like he has often done recently in his first innings, the Brewers would have found themselves in a 3-3 tie or trailing in the third inning with 3 pitchers, including 2 of the top relievers, already used up. 

I wonder  if Murphy is now planning to use Quintina and Priester as a "stack" in game 3. 

[sobomp3]

3 hours ago, 39Streak said:

Oh my... dying here. 🤣

[OldSchoolSnapper]

9 minutes ago, BruisedCrew said:

I really can't agree with the sentiment that Murphy's decision to go with the bullpen game was a master class move.

In my book it was a gamble that ended up working out because the offense and the 6 pitchers who followed Ashby all came through with near flawless performances. From the contemporaneous comments on the game thread I think there are a lot of posters who would agree with me if they are honest with themselves.

If Vaughn hadn't come up with the 3 run HR in the first and/or any of the 6 pitchers who followed Ashby had had blowup outings, he would have been roasted for tinkering with pitchers and putting them in something other than their normal roles. 

If he wanted to give the back end relievers an inning of work that could have been done easily after letting Priester go 4 innings and pulling him earlier if he ran into trouble.

If Misioroski had walked several batters, like he has often done recently in his first innings, the Brewers would have found themselves in a 3-3 tie or trailing in the third inning with 3 pitchers, including 2 of the top relievers, already used up. 

I wonder  if Murphy is now planning to use Quintina and Priester as a "stack" in game 3. 

I couldn't agree more. It "worked" because they got two magical three-run bombs and bailed him out. It was teetering on nightmarish. Ashby was bad, if they had to use Miz while losing it could have gone very differently. Nothing about that move screams "wow, genius." 

But they did win, and now they have Priester, Peralta and Quintana in the chamber. 

 

[SeaBass]

11 minutes ago, BruisedCrew said:

I really can't agree with the sentiment that Murphy's decision to go with the bullpen game was a master class move.

The only thing I have really been wanting to say about this is that I seriously doubt this was an all Murphy decision to go with a bullpen game. I'm sure many people were involved including the front office. Can I say that with 100% confidence? Of course not but it just never really felt to me that something like this would be all on one guy.

[dlk9s]

6 minutes ago, BruisedCrew said:

If Vaughn hadn't come up with the 3 run HR in the first and/or any of the 6 pitchers who followed Ashby had had blowup outings, he would have been roasted for tinkering with pitchers and putting them in something other than their normal roles. 

Well, yeah, if players don't play well, then the decisions the manager makes don't work out.

I don't think the bullpen game was some "master class" move, but it essentially worked out the way Murphy intended it. Only allowed three runs total, got the relievers work, and won the game.

I try not to be a "results-oriented" thinker (though I certainly stray a lot). I don't see Ashby's struggles as a failure in managerial strategy - he just had a rough couple innings. There was no reason to expect he'd be bad, as he's been fantastic all year and just pitched great the other day. The bullpen game was fantastic the rest of the way and pitcher usage likely wasn't much different than it would have been had Ashby pitched well. So instead of spreading three runs across nine innings, it was three runs in one inning (yes, I understand that scoring in bulk early can change psyche and strategy).

And hell, had the ump been decent, Ashby probably doesn't walk the guy in the first inning and gets out of there unscathed.

The part I question about the pitching decision was that had Priester pitched, he'd then be available to start Game 5 on regular rest. But now hopefully we won't need that.

[SeaBass]

1 minute ago, dlk9s said:

Well, yeah, if players don't play well, then the decisions the manager makes don't work out.

I don't think the bullpen game was some "master class" move, but it essentially worked out the way Murphy intended it. Only allowed three runs total, got the relievers work, and won the game.

I try not to be a "results-oriented" thinker (though I certainly stray a lot). I don't see Ashby's struggles as a failure in managerial strategy - he just had a rough couple innings. There was no reason to expect he'd be bad, as he's been fantastic all year and just pitched great the other day. The bullpen game was fantastic the rest of the way and pitcher usage likely wasn't much different than it would have been had Ashby pitched well. So instead of spreading three runs across nine innings, it was three runs in one inning (yes, I understand that scoring in bulk early can change psyche and strategy).

And hell, had the ump been decent, Ashby probably doesn't walk the guy in the first inning and gets out of there unscathed.

The part I question about the pitching decision was that had Priester pitched, he'd then be available to start Game 5 on regular rest. But now hopefully we won't need that.

Exactly. Going into this game which pitcher would you have had the most confidence in, Ashby as an opener or the plan to have Miz go multiple innings after him (yes with Mears sandwiched in between)?

It just ended up that Ashby was having command problems and Miz ended up doing great.

[Brian]

Miz hits 104 

 

[dlk9s]

I mean, look at the other side of it. Counsell started Turner at leadoff, he went 1-2, and the Cubs got out to a 3-run lead. Smart move that worked out well! But they lost the game.

[long ball]

So I agree that I don’t necessarily think this was a “master class”. the brewers basically did what I expected them to do in game 3, but did it in game 2 instead. 
 

I think if we step back for a second the reason why is obvious. The off days on either side of the planned bullpen day is so much more advantageous than trying to pull off the bullpen game in game 3. By doing it in game 2 they have the off day leading into it and the off day before game 3 and they can have as short of a leash as they need with any of the relievers and still have most if not all of them ready for the next game. 
 

this also allows them to pitch Priester in game 3 and Freddy in game 4 (if needed) where you hope to get 4-5 innings apiece and need less from your pen. In the worst case scenario they’d also have an off day leading into another potential bullpen game in game 5 if it came down to that. 
 

I thought the allure of having Priester available for 2 potential starts in the DS was to great and that’s why he’d be going in game 2, but clearly I was wrong. The Brewers took advantage of that extra off day instead to set it up to bullpen 2 games if needed. 

[cragi]

They played the long game here and it paid off and now they are sitting pretty for the postseason.

Miz looked like a non factor to end the year and couldn’t be trusted. but with woody out, they felt they needed one more guy for an extended run. They know more on his progress in the simulations than we do and they felt this was a place they could roll the dice and see if he can help us

That move also pulled Busch. I’m sure Pat knows how CC thinks.

Others have covered the benefit of QP at Wrigley

Our entire arsenal of pitchers including Peralta is available game 3.

 

[RobertCrawley]

40 minutes ago, BruisedCrew said:

I really can't agree with the sentiment that Murphy's decision to go with the bullpen game was a master class move.

In my book it was a gamble that ended up working out because the offense and the 6 pitchers who followed Ashby all came through with near flawless performances. From the contemporaneous comments on the game thread I think there are a lot of posters who would agree with me if they are honest with themselves.

If Vaughn hadn't come up with the 3 run HR in the first and/or any of the 6 pitchers who followed Ashby had had blowup outings, he would have been roasted for tinkering with pitchers and putting them in something other than their normal roles. 

If he wanted to give the back end relievers an inning of work that could have been done easily after letting Priester go 4 innings and pulling him earlier if he ran into trouble.

If Misioroski had walked several batters, like he has often done recently in his first innings, the Brewers would have found themselves in a 3-3 tie or trailing in the third inning with 3 pitchers, including 2 of the top relievers, already used up. 

I wonder  if Murphy is now planning to use Quintina and Priester as a "stack" in game 3. 

It amazes me that people are second-guessing Murphy when we have a 2-0 lead on the Cubs, the team people were agonizing about a week ago.

It was a great plan to start Ashby. The start of the second game on Monday night was a nerve-racking proposition for any pitcher. So why not go with someone who’s been very good in tough situations down the stretch. But even Ashby felt the pressure and was not his best. Fortunately our hitters got some pitches to hit and did not miss.

Ifs don’t matter. You can if any scenario. They are not reality. The fact is we had a great game. That’s the reality.  

I’m sure Greg wishes Murph had done things differently.

[RobertCrawley]

15 minutes ago, cragi said:

They played the long game here and it paid off and now they are sitting pretty for the postseason.

Miz looked like a non factor to end the year and couldn’t be trusted. but with woody out, they felt they needed one more guy for an extended run. They know more on his progress in the simulations than we do and they felt this was a place they could roll the dice and see if he can help us

That move also pulled Busch. I’m sure Pat knows how CC thinks.

Others have covered the benefit of QP at Wrigley

Our entire arsenal of pitchers including Peralta is available game 3.

 

Not Peralta.

[dlk9s]

In the meantime, we get to enjoy the best team in Brewers history playing in the postseason with a 2-0 lead on the Cubs. 

[formerlybis]

Execution matters infinitely more than strategy & tactics - not that they're meaningless, but execution flaws can't save sound strategy (e.g., pitching Ashby who's been the best pitcher on the staff over the last two months), and brilliant execution can overcome questionable strategy (e.g., pitching Miz in a postseason tie game). 

The players deserve the credit for performing way more than the manager does for putting them in those positions. This is the reason I'm pretty zen about all the managerial decisions - up to the players to execute.

[Brian]

13 minutes ago, RobertCrawley said:

It amazes me that people are second-guessing Murphy when we have a 2-0 lead on the Cubs, the team people were agonizing about a week ago.

It was a great plan to start Ashby. The start of the second game on Monday night was a nerve-racking proposition for any pitcher. So why not go with someone who’s been very good in tough situations down the stretch. But even Ashby felt the pressure and was not his best. Fortunately our hitters got some pitches to hit and did not miss.

Ifs don’t matter. You can if any scenario. They are not reality. The fact is we had a great game. That’s the reality.  

I’m sure Greg wishes Murph had done things differently.

People on Brewer Fanatic have been 2nd guessing Murphy all season long, yet the Brewers had a franchise record 97-win season and the best overall record in all the MLB.  The only thing I really got upset about was the over usage of Trevor Megill in August. That could have been much much more disastrous than it ended up being. 

[RobertCrawley]

2 minutes ago, Brian said:

People on Brewer Fanatic have been 2nd guessing Murphy all season long, yet the Brewers had a franchise record 97-win season and the best overall record in all the MLB.  The only thing I really got upset about was the over usage of Trevor Megill in August. That could have been much much more disastrous than it ended up being. 

I’m glad Ashby held up too. He was a workhorse.

[Patrick425]

I was at the game last night with my son and had to scroll through this thread to see the comments during the first 5 or 6 innings. The posts were pretty much what I expected and a lot of them pretty  much matched our thoughts as we were watching the game. 

My message to a co-worker at 9:02pm "*** is Murphy doing? Is Priester hurt?  We had a week off and this is our plan??!"

My follow up message at 9:53 (less than an hour later): "Me stupid. Murphy smart."

Also, my son recognized the umpire as Estabrook in the first inning. We were both concerned about that.  When you recognize an umpire and know his name, that is not a good sign. Not sure how he earned his playoff spot, but at the very least should have never been given a home plate assignment.

[StearnsFTW]

4 hours ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

Counsell is such a douche. I wasn't too upset when that all went down, I understood it, but the way he acts and talks since then has made him so unlikeable. I actually think his legacy may be worse if the Brewers do win a championship this year. It's hard to see a scenario in which people are applauding him during some reunion ceremony. I'm sure they will down the line, but the guy can stay in Illinois for all I care. 

I always found him unlikable, but I always appreciated him as our manager.   He's just a knob.

[owbc]

Too early to say if it was a "master class" move or not. We're playing the long game as others have noted. 

Maybe we win game 3 because Priester has a couple deep fly balls knocked down by the wind blowing in? Or maybe we end up with bullpen fatigue by game 4. Who knows. 

Right now it looks pretty brilliant though. Even if the alternate plan went well and Priester had won game 2, we'd be sitting here right now worrying about how the bullpen would cover game 3. Instead we're in ridiculously good shape.

[Frisbee Slider]

If you have an opportunity to throw seven different relievers that throw 100 mph, left and right handed, with days off in between games, it seems like a well calculated risk.

Yes, one of those relievers is Misiorowski. At the same time, we knew his outing was going to be spectacular, one way or another. (Good or bad)

[RobertCrawley]

4 minutes ago, Frisbee Slider said:

If you have an opportunity to throw seven different relievers that throw 100 mph, left and right handed, with days off in between games, it seems like a well calculated risk.

Yes, one of those relievers is Misiorowski. At the same time, we knew his outing was going to be spectacular, one way or another. (Good or bad)

That young man was amped! (All the way to 11.) So amped he couldn’t throw a curve. But that didn’t matter so long as he was throwing enough strikes at 100+. 

[Patrick425]

Perhaps this was already mentioned here, but the Cubs have scored 3 runs or less in 13 straight playoff games dating back to 2017.

[Daubs]

1 hour ago, Patrick425 said:

Also, my son recognized the umpire as Estabrook in the first inning. We were both concerned about that.  When you recognize an umpire and know his name, that is not a good sign. Not sure how he earned his playoff spot, but at the very least should have never been given a home plate assignment.

Heard on the radio this morning that playoff assignments by MLB are given by seniority, not merit.  This is far different than any other sport.

That really needs to change.....

[Frisbee Slider]

6 minutes ago, Daubs said:

Heard on the radio this morning that playoff assignments by MLB are given by seniority, not merit.  This is far different than any other sport.

That really needs to change.....

When there are unions involved, seniority and merit are typically the exact same words. That is to say, only seniority matters.

[CheezWizHed]

3 hours ago, BruisedCrew said:

I really can't agree with the sentiment that Murphy's decision to go with the bullpen game was a master class move.

In my book it was a gamble that ended up working out because the offense and the 6 pitchers who followed Ashby all came through with near flawless performances. From the contemporaneous comments on the game thread I think there are a lot of posters who would agree with me if they are honest with themselves.

If Vaughn hadn't come up with the 3 run HR in the first and/or any of the 6 pitchers who followed Ashby had had blowup outings, he would have been roasted for tinkering with pitchers and putting them in something other than their normal roles. 

If he wanted to give the back end relievers an inning of work that could have been done easily after letting Priester go 4 innings and pulling him earlier if he ran into trouble.

If Misioroski had walked several batters, like he has often done recently in his first innings, the Brewers would have found themselves in a 3-3 tie or trailing in the third inning with 3 pitchers, including 2 of the top relievers, already used up. 

I wonder  if Murphy is now planning to use Quintina and Priester as a "stack" in game 3. 

IF Ashby's pitch to Suzuki was 0.1" higher, we'd be talking about a shutout.  There are a lot of "IFs" in the game. Ashby wasn't perfectly sharp, but Suzuki hit a pitch out of the strike zone... which makes it more about him than Ashby. 

Regardless of whether Ashby was the right call or not... Bush now knows that CC will bench him for a LHSP.  That can't feel good for him.