Heyman on CC (Will Craig Counsell be the Brewer manager next year?)

[RobertCrawley]

45 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

I don't think Attanasio is going to let money be the obstacle to CC returning. Negotiating managers' salaries is different than that of players' in FA. 

I hope you are right!

[dlk9s]

16 hours ago, MoreTrife said:

Antanassio isn't rich

[RobDeer 45]

Money talks.  If he could get a ridiculous contract and manage in NY, and his family stays in Milwaukee, I think he'd consider.  I never thought he'd leave, but at some point, money can make people change their minds.

[SeaBass]

1 hour ago, RobDeer 45 said:

Money talks.  If he could get a ridiculous contract and manage in NY, and his family stays in Milwaukee, I think he'd consider.  I never thought he'd leave, but at some point, money can make people change their minds.

You don't throw money at a manager in the same way you throw money at star players. Bruce Bochy is rumored to be the highest paid manager in MLB at around $6M/year. Counsell is rumored to be currently making $3.5M/year. In what world does his salary negotiations get so crazy the Brewers can't come close?

So Counsell is in line for a nice pay increase. Even if he goes to New York for a little extra that for some reason Attanasio doesn't offer him, NY has higher income taxes and a higher cost of living compared to Wisconsin.

Plus the hassle of moving. We know his immediate family lives in WI but what about other family? If the people he prefers to spend his time around are here and he likes managing for his hometown Brewers it seems like a long shot that he'll leave.

IMO if he chooses to go to New York, or elsewhere, it's because there's something going on between him and the FO or Attanasio himself that makes him want to cut bait.

[homer]

2 minutes ago, SeaBass said:

IMO if he chooses to go to New York, or elsewhere, it's because there's something going on between him and the FO or Attanasio himself that makes him want to cut bait.

I agree with this. Unless NY offers something ridiculous for a manager like $12 million a year he'd be leaving for reasons other than money.

[AKCheesehead]

If Stearns tries stealing CC, then I hope Stearns tears his achilles his first day on the job with NY. 

[MoreTrife]

4 hours ago, dlk9s said:

Hahaha relative. Relative.

[CheeseheadInQC]

On 9/22/2023 at 10:46 AM, Underachiever said:

I think that people not in professional sports move their families for a different opportunity all the time, and it works out. It's one thing to uproot your family and move from Dubuque to the Quad Cities for a better but middle class job. It's another to move them to New York with all the perks and benefits that working for the Mets would provide. 

I did a double take at this example because I know people who made that move in both directions.

As for Counsell, I have no doubt Stearns would want him. Not sure Counsell would take the bait, though. If he does, I think it will be for reasons beyond Stearns.

[Underachiever]

On 9/22/2023 at 11:58 AM, Brock Beauchamp said:

Sure, but Counsell seems like the type of guy who has done just fine for himself with investments. He doesn't strike me as the type of fellow rolling a garage with four Bentleys in it.

We don’t know anything like that in the slightest. If I said Counsell stuffs his money in his mattress, it would be just as factual as you saying he seems like the type of guy who does well. We saw how Madoff really hurt a lot of “rich” guys. And a lot of rich people like more money. We take that “hometown” view of Counsell because it either aligns with our personal views, or our wishes for what will happen,.

[Never Outhustled]

I'm guessing CCs negotiation with Attanasio will have more to so with money for the team than for money for himself. Counsel wants to win, and Attanasio needs to convince him that Mark cares about anything besides turning a profit.

[sveumrules]

56 minutes ago, Never Outhustled said:

I'm guessing CCs negotiation with Attanasio will have more to so with money for the team than for money for himself. Counsel wants to win, and Attanasio needs to convince him that Mark cares about anything besides turning a profit.

They've won the 6th most games in MLB since 2018, and the 5th most games in MLB this year. They are doing alright for a team whose owner apparently doesn't care about anything besides turning a profit.

[Never Outhustled]

22 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

They've won the 6th most games in MLB since 2018, and the 5th most games in MLB this year. They are doing alright for a team whose owner apparently doesn't care about anything besides turning a profit.

Why are you stealing credit from the people who did the work and giving it to the cheapskate owner? 

 

The Brewers have won in spite of Attansio, not because of him. 

[sveumrules]

3 minutes ago, Never Outhustled said:

Why are you stealing credit from the people who did the work and giving it to the cheapskate owner? 

 

The Brewers have won in spite of Attansio, not because of him. 

Why didn't they win in spite of cheapskate Selig for the last 15 years he owned the team then?

1989-2004: 1155-1369 (.458 W%, 2nd worst among non-expansion teams)
2008-2023: 1292-1192 (.520 W%, 7th of 30 MLB teams)

Pretty remarkable to win in spite of ownership across multiple front offices, managers, coaches and players over the course of 15 years.

How much do you think Craig is going to make Mark A increase payroll by annually in order to stay on board as skipper? And why did Mark A choose to run a franchise record payroll this year (and last year) if all he cares about is turning a profit?

[BrewerFan]

On 9/21/2023 at 8:08 PM, Cool Hand Lucroy said:

Call me super skeptical of this. Could the Mets swoop in and offer CC way more than the Brewers? Sure. That was always going to happen. 

I suppose it's possible Heyman has new info, but this smacks of "New York Post, drumming up interest and clicks, with some vague story that alludes to a change without asserting anything provable and outlining a remote possibility that already existed."

CC is great. He should do what he wants. I happen to still believe that will involve a year or two off, but who knows? It just seems like a big jump to go from "I'd like more time with family" to "Let's move to New York" in a matter of a week or two.

 

It sound like it's literally just pure speculation right in the article. I don't think they're presenting it as fact.

Here's the equation-

Does Craig Counsell care more about making 10M a year and Managing a team that's...just objectively speaking, going to have a better chance to win the next 5-6 years;

OR

Does Counsell want to make...~7M and manage a team that's still got a pretty good chance to win and be able to drive home in about 20 minutes following every Brewers home game and see his family?

OR

Does he just want to take a break and watch his kids because...how many millions do you need and can you spend them to get time back with your kids?

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

4 hours ago, Never Outhustled said:

Why are you stealing credit from the people who did the work and giving it to the cheapskate owner? 

The Brewers have won in spite of Attansio, not because of him. 

Blame MLB, not Attanasio. The Brewers literally play in the smallest market in baseball but generally have the 20th highest payroll in the sport, give or take a couple spots (and usually higher, not lower).

Honestly, what more do you ask of the franchise? Sure, they could spend more, so could literally every team in baseball. But Attanasio has been one of the better owners in baseball. If you want to get truly angry at an owner, go look at the Orioles payroll over the past 7-8 years.

[Brock Beauchamp]

7 hours ago, Underachiever said:

We don’t know anything like that in the slightest. If I said Counsell stuffs his money in his mattress, it would be just as factual as you saying he seems like the type of guy who does well. We saw how Madoff really hurt a lot of “rich” guys. And a lot of rich people like more money. We take that “hometown” view of Counsell because it either aligns with our personal views, or our wishes for what will happen,.

Sure. I also prefaced my statement with "seems like the type of guy", which rather obviously says I don't have data to support this, only what I can see and the vibe I get from CC.

Smart, collected, stoic people often do okay for themselves when presented money. The way CC manages the clubhouse and team can be extrapolated into his personal life and finances. Does this make it absolutely true? Of course not, I'm neither Counsell's tax agent nor am I TurboTax.

[Never Outhustled]

6 hours ago, sveumrules said:

 And why did Mark A choose to run a franchise record payroll this year (and last year) if all he cares about is turning a profit?

 

Did the teams payroll keep up with other organizations? No, we all know it didn't. 

[SF70]

7 hours ago, Never Outhustled said:

 

Did the teams payroll keep up with other organizations? No, we all know it didn't. 

Why are you choosing to be oblivious to the realities of revenue disparities between small-medium and large-market teams?

 

[BrewerFan]

On 9/24/2023 at 9:29 PM, Brock Beauchamp said:

Blame MLB, not Attanasio. The Brewers literally play in the smallest market in baseball but generally have the 20th highest payroll in the sport, give or take a couple spots (and usually higher, not lower).

Honestly, what more do you ask of the franchise? Sure, they could spend more, so could literally every team in baseball. But Attanasio has been one of the better owners in baseball. If you want to get truly angry at an owner, go look at the Orioles payroll over the past 7-8 years.

O's fans have a legitimate complaint. Their owner owns over 70% of the team. Peter Angelos was worth 3B+

Attanasio owns 30-some percent and is the principal owner, NOT the majority owner and yet they've still remained competitive in a much smaller market. 

I think it's just a fundamental lack of understanding. Attanasio didn't even know about the Hader trade until it was all but done and Stearns had to call for approval. He's not out there demanding they slash payroll. He gives them a number obviously, but unless you just think everyone is lying, he's NEVER vetoed a trade over salary, never told the FO to get rid of a player over salary.

Even just an NBA type revenue sharing would benefit the Brewers significantly(forget about an NFL type system where they'd on equal footing). 

In MLB, the difference in revenue isn't 30-50 million, it's HUNDREDS of millions. How in the hell are we expecting a guy who owns I believe it's 38% of the Brewers to match the spending of the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets when he HIMSELF is worth "just" ~680M?

It's just...ridiculous. I hope Dee and Jimmy Haslem decide they want to get into Baseball. Or Paul Menard or Kohler or someone else and they want to buy a part of the Brewers and push the payroll into the Braves category(which BTW, they are probably pocketing a lot more revenue at the end of the year than the Brewers). 

 

But this shows how spoiled we've gotten. Yes, we did not deserve Wendy Selig-Prieb and Sal Bando, but Mark Attanasio has done an outstanding job. And frankly...the best change he's made? Staying the hell OUT of the day to day operations as he's the one who's famously pushed for Suppan, Lohse and Garza, the worst signings the Brewers have made. 

Stearns made him understand you can't be competitive in the market by going out and spending a significant chunk of your payroll on #3-4 pitchers(who actually ended up being worse than that). 

He's allowed the Baseball guys to run it. He stepped back because he had the self awareness to recognize...he's just a fan. And I suspect most of us would make dumb decisions, as confident and as smart as we are or think we are, or how closely we follow the farm system. 

On 9/24/2023 at 4:54 PM, Never Outhustled said:

Why are you stealing credit from the people who did the work and giving it to the cheapskate owner? 

 

The Brewers have won in spite of Attansio, not because of him. 

Who exactly hired David Stearns? Who kept him from the Mets? Arnold, Todd Johnson, Charlie Greene who's turned guys like William Contreras from guys who can catch occasionally, but are more DH type players into now a top 5 catcher?

The top 3 Farm System they have. 

It's HIS job to hire the top executives, something he's got an outstanding reputation for(there's a reason Steve Cohen and his 20B dollar bank account had been trying to poach Stearns and is paying him 15M a year). 

 

What you're saying just fundamentally doesn't make sense. The Buck stops with...Attanasio when they lose, but when they succeed, you're "stealing credit?" ********. He deserves credit for making the right hires. Anyone who's run a business knows you can do but so much and you NEED good people working for you. 

[MrTPlush]

On 9/24/2023 at 1:46 PM, Underachiever said:

We don’t know anything like that in the slightest. If I said Counsell stuffs his money in his mattress, it would be just as factual as you saying he seems like the type of guy who does well. We saw how Madoff really hurt a lot of “rich” guys. And a lot of rich people like more money. We take that “hometown” view of Counsell because it either aligns with our personal views, or our wishes for what will happen,.

He lives in Whitefish Bay, literally where he grew up and went to high school. He owns a house that is pretty modest and close enough to his neighbors that he can hit the side of their house while snow blowing. The lot is so narrow he can't even have a two wide driveway (that is asphalt to boot). He doesn't pay to get his roof cleaned and his peak landscaping is a Whitefish Bay 'Duke Pride' sign in the front flower bed. 

I am pretty sure Counsell said he only took the Brewers job because it was the Brewers...any other team and he wouldn't have started managing a team. I am also pretty sure he has said before he doesn't really have interest in managing elsewhere either. 

If I had to guess, I would put the odds at 60% that he is considering not managing period next year. Live life, be with his wife, travel, and watch the kids play etc. It is probably the most sensible option. However, if that was the case, I would think he would have just come out and said it. Maybe he doesn't want to draw attention during the season though. I would probably put a 30% chance he is just playing chess to get the best offer out of Milwaukee. And maybe a 10% chance he is actually considering going to a better place to win. I really can't imagine him uprooting his family and going all the way to NYC though. It just doesn't really make any sense.  

 

[markedman5]

I’m starting to get the feeling that CC will be managing somewhere else next season.

Hope I’m wrong.

[Brewcrew82]

2 hours ago, markedman5 said:

I’m starting to get the feeling that CC will be managing somewhere else next season.

Hope I’m wrong.

I don’t see it. What incentive does he have to manage somewhere else other than (maybe) a couple extra million bucks? This is his home.

Retirement? A different story.

[Sixtolezcano]

2 hours ago, markedman5 said:

I’m starting to get the feeling that CC will be managing somewhere else next season.

Hope I’m wrong.

That seems to be the prevailing belief. 

[shanedog19]

3 minutes ago, Sixtolezcano said:

That seems to be the prevailing belief. 

The question that needs to be answered is “why”? If it is indeed the Mets, are they really that close to competing next year? Will Counsell want to part of a rebuild? 

[Brewcrew82]

2 hours ago, markedman5 said:

I’m starting to get the feeling that CC will be managing somewhere else next season.

Hope I’m wrong.

I don’t see it. What incentive does he have to manage somewhere else other than (maybe) a couple extra million bucks? This is his home.

Retirement? A different story.